kanae-88.dreamwidth.org - SasuKarin💕 - A DANGEROUS AFFECTION [III - COMMON ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM]

A DANGEROUS AFFECTION [III - COMMON ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM]

APR. 20TH, 2013 08:48 PM

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COMMON ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡnY6O8x1PhT
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To address each point as efficiently as I possibly can, I will format this section as if I were directly replying to Anti-SK'ers. Also, since there are new "arguments" every day and I've already addressed a good bunch of these throughout the previous sections, here is an index so you can jump right to the topic of your choice.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ3T8QF64XZe

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a) Sasuke just wants Karin for her abilities!

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This would be a fair point alright—that is, if the story had stopped right at chapter 348. But when we have chapters like 415 where Sasuke shows obvious, tangible, undeniable concern for Karin’s well-being and safety—meaning for her being rather than her abilities—the argument crumbles on its own.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡmJOSv9Rogc
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Ah, wait a sec—that isn’t enough to prove she isn’t a tool to him, you say? Sasuke risking his life and his teammate’s lives while he’s at it, freaking out and awakening a new ability out of care for Karin isn’t enough? Sasuke jeopardizing his revenge in the off-chance he may be able to save Karin's life isn't enough?—ah, overused, you say?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡGlVKG9XqFZ
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Does that in any way, shape or form refute the fact that said chapter proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sasuke cares about her as a being?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡv9pOOSJ59S
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No? I didn't think so.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡnLEGPFtVsL
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Anyway, the reason why I point 415 out so much is because it's an instance that directly contradicts, by principle alone, this claim of Sasuke only wanting Karin for her abilities; Sasuke risking his life and as such jeopardizing his revenge (meaning, his lifelong goal) over a supposed 'tool' (meaning, a mere asset to said goal) is ridiculous. But don't be mistaken, there indeed are more displays of caring from Sasuke's side. For example here, here, here, here and here; just to name a few.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡFZkUpd8eTq
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And on-top of all that, there’s also Sasuke’s apology. Which—as was mentioned before—had nothing to do with Karin’s abilities, and everything to do with Karin herself. And as such, with the way Sasuke regards her.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡSl1dguIIVr
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So no, Sasuke doesn’t want Karin just for her abilities. He cares for her as an individual (enough to awake a new ability for her) and as a valuable member of his team; as one of the people who saved him, risked her own life for him, and once helped him realize/remember he was not alone.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡe9dHXwOaN2
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That seems to me like a considerable amount of caring, actually.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡTLCyeioYiL
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b) Whatever, he still stabbed her! Tool or not, that means he didn’t care that much after all!

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I already addressed this here. But to put it bluntly: stabbing Karin wasn’t Sasuke explicitly desiring to kill her. It was Sasuke consciously choosing to sacrifice her and their bond for his revenge. Thus his descent into 'true' darkness; Kishimoto would not have put such weight on Sasuke sacrificing someone he did not care about, because then it would not have made such a big difference when it came to Sasuke's 'darkness' level (which can take an extra layer of meaning depending on how one reads Chapter 619, but for now let's just focus on the facts).682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡeMzXd9EztE
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480 is the exact opposite of what Sasuke did in 415; both actions are meant to contrast and oppose one another, just as the Sasuke who severed their bond is a Sasuke who has become “completely different” from the Sasuke Karin has always known.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡiiTRhNiQBj
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In other words, while he is responsible for what he did (and as such, it poses an issue that needs to be addressed for the pairing to be satisfactory—which is a process that has already begun thanks to Sasuke's apology) the actions of such a Sasuke cannot be used to say he never cared about Karin; had he actually put her in danger or aimed to hurt her before his darkness, then sure, because then there would be no contrast between both situations. Alas, we all know that was not the case.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ27Xpvy9IGd
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As for Sasuke consciously choosing his revenge over his bond with her meaning that he 'didn't care that much', last time I checked, these two concepts weren't mutually exclusive when it came to Sasuke's character. Not like he has chosen revenge and consciously severed a bond with a very important person to him in the past, right?. And through the same method, at that.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡlCGTjVTYsD
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c) ...Pft. Even before going dark, Sasuke was always an ass to her!

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Um, okay. Seems to me like you’re just projecting Sasuke’s typical behavior to his dynamic with Karin. Whatever your reason for doing that may be, you are generalizing just for the sake of it and as such, greatly off the mark.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡyuQi4isTUh
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In fact, let me rhetorically ask you to provide me with instances of the usual (pre-Kage Summit, non-dark) Sasuke being ‘an ass’ to Karin. I guarantee (either of) these are the ones you would think of bringing up:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ7beWLH7W67

Chapter 348. Actually, Sasuke’s “would you back off?” is a mistranslation. What he does say to her is “You… move back a little / back away a little.” Big difference there, right? Not much of an ‘ass’ now, is he?
Chapter 380. Guess what, we have another faulty translation in our hands here. Or not faulty; rather, it’s liberal. It took the liberty of adding an extra line to Sasuke’s original dialogues. Can you guess which? That’s right, all Sasuke actually tells her is “Karin… you guys wait here. This is my revenge.” No more, no less. Suddenly that doesn’t sound rude at all, does it? (and just in case, Sasuke had his sharingan turned on from the start. it had nothing to do with what he was telling Karin.)

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That leaves us with:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡM4jDZnxXc5

Chapter 355. Where Karin glomps him when she should be leaving to find information like the rest of Hebi, and Sasuke bluntly tells her just that. Doesn’t seem much like Sasuke being an ass to me (especially since he doesn’t even comment on the fact that she just glomped him, and the whole scene is rather comedic what with Karin even sweatdropping at his reaction). But since that’s subjective, it’s arguable.
Chapter 404. Sasuke is in the middle of bluffing with "Madara", Karin chimes in and gets deliberately ignored in the process. Rude? I personally do think so (though it was, at the very least, understandable—and Karin most likely thinks so as well, which is why she silently fumes rather than interrupting again and letting him have a piece of her mind). So if you were to bring up this instance, I would give it to you.

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Lastly, while this one already forms part of the Kage Summit arc, I’ll bring it up either way. Chapter 457. The reason why I’m even bringing this one up is because, if you actually consider that asking Karin to “concentrate on tracking the enemy’s chakra for the moment” is Sasuke being an ass to her, then I actually can’t complain. Because it serves to prove something fairly simple: even in the few instances where Sasuke was remotely rude to Karin, he was never as much of an ass to her as to how he usually is to other people.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡZRI2MTWGxJ
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And to illustrate that point, I’ll actually do some comparisons and expand on some of the scenes I’ve mentioned above; because this actually happens to be one of the most common misconceptions and generalizations about SasuKarin.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡmHr31e8GHy
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Fact of the matter is, people aren't off-base when it comes to Sasuke. When Sasuke wants to be rude (or rather, when Sasuke does not give a damn) Sasuke is rude. There are no in-between; the guy is "stay out of my business", "shut up", etc rude. He can be—and often is—quite literally, a total ass.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡgGIG2uICbQ
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But pre-Kage Summit Sasuke never reacted in such a way to Karin; and there were a myriad of occasions in which Karin's words and behavior could have granted her that kind of response. But in all those instances of "he could have" - Sasuke didn't.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡZgacKHeooT
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Let’s take a second look at that panel in Chapter 348; he simply asks her to move back a little, while he could have reacted like this instead. 380? Karin is not only telling him what he should do (beat Kisame and go to Itachi together as a team) but also that his own plan of action simply "won't do". Sasuke, however, does not snap at her at all; he could have reacted like this instead, or this, or even this. 355? Karin actually did warrant Sasuke’s reminder; yet, despite the fact that Karin wanting to remain with him was out of place given the circumstances (Hebi had a mission) and would have slowed him down (not to mention that she outright glomped him), all Sasuke does is state the obvious. What did he do the last time a member of his cell jeopardized his mission? 1 | 2 | 3. In other words, he could have sent Karin off in a different, much ruder way (including a "what do you think you're doing?" which would have been warranted given her glomp). But he didn't. Or he could have given her a memo like this, too.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡNfoX1iVIwp
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And like in the previous instances of he could have—he didn’t.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡF9Uh0wq0JB
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I already mentioned that I did find him rude in 404 (though not ‘he is a total ass to her' level, which would have been a ‘shut up, Karin’. Or ‘stay out of this, Karin’—which we all know he has no qualms in saying to others), and that I don’t even find 457 worth arguing over. Truth is though, I find none of these instances are worth fretting over as a SK fan.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡvP0tTWMxU1
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Why? Not only because (as I already showed) those instances are leagues away from how rude Sasuke tends to be; but because fact is, the number of times when Sasuke just lets Karin do as she pleases and does not respond to her with any rudeness (even though in quite a few of those instances one could say he did arguably have reasons to do so) far outnumber them.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ1wZNNanGkZ
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As a matter of that, if one were to nitpick about either of them being rude to the other, Karin is rude to Sasuke way more often than Sasuke is rude to her (which, as I just showed, rarely if ever happens). On that light, Karin has also often addressed him with 'anta' and more than once with 'teme', which are both extremely rude. And what does he do when she snaps at him, insults him, and/or insults Suigetsu? Nothing. He indulgently lets her be without issuing a single complaint.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡccA5XI5WDR
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I happen to believe this—which is constant, matters more than the couple of isolated instances where (normal) Sasuke's responses to Karin can be questioned. After all, it is the consistent and constant natures and overtones present in a dynamic those that shape it, rather than the exceptions.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡMA814DNvpV
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Lastly, after the big contrast between Sasuke’s behavior in 627 and his behavior in 631, I can’t tie this up without bringing it up again, because it’s a perfect summary of the point I’ve been making throughout this section.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡDPLdyzgWKL
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When Sasuke apologized to Karin right away, without a moment’s hesitation, many were quick to jump up and assume that he would be delivering apologies left and right to his Konoha peers. In fact, his apology to Karin was dismissed—as if Sasuke were the type to apologize to people on a daily basis.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡNnETJTQS0I
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Yet—nearly 50 chapters later, Sasuke has done anything but. When Konoha rightfully pointed out his wrong-doings, what they received was a blunt: “I don’t care what you think about me”.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡlGBzFggHiZ
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Which, again, serves to illustrate that if anything, Sasuke's usual behavior does nothing but highlight how interesting his behavior toward Karin is.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡbw2yn5lMvp
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tl; dr To quote myself:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡoXLAds1czX

It’s precisely Sasuke’s usual behavior towards people that makes Sasuke->Karin stand out so much [to me]. Up to this point there has been lenience for Karin whereas there would’ve been “shut ups” and “stay out of my business” for anyone else. There’s partiality for Karin whereas there are warnings for Suigetsu. There are “you saved my life, Karin”s whereas there are “stand back, I don’t need your help” for Suigetsu and Juugo. There are “I’m sorry... Karin” whereas there are “I honestly don’t care what you guys think of me” for everyone else. There is an “I need you”s that he has not bothered to say to anyone else.

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d) Sasuke rejected her from the start!

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Well, what exactly did you want him to do? Allow her to kiss him right then and there? Are we talking about the same Sasuke? Sasuke isn’t comfortable with people invading his personal space, and he doesn’t usually respond kindly when people do it; besides, he has no experience whatsoever with women, and he has never shown any interest in anything related to the subject, either, because of his focus on vengeance.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPKAnbj1Aft
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So had Sasuke reacted in any other way, the apocalypse would’ve come for sure.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ73B3wm6nTP
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But to address the statement more directly; yet again, this would hold some weight if the manga had stopped at chapter 348 (though not that much, because Sasuke didn't even look annoyed when he asked her to move back a little). But since it didn’t and we did get chapter 412 and chapter 415 (hello there, caring)—just to name the more blatant, non-arguable ones—this amounts to nothing.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡigOYKY94Ra
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Because let’s face it: Sasuke wasn’t interested in love back then and he may not be interested in love now—but who says he won’t be some time in the future, once he has put his issues to rest? And that is where trivial stuff like this is worth nothing, and everything I’ve mentioned before is worth it all.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ21nnFD5gzl
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Because of all those things I’ve been talking about make Karin his perfect choice, and the girl he could develop feelings for more naturally.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ32M7GHzP2k
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Oh, by the way—technically, after 482 ‘he rejected her from the start!’ could not be further from the truth. Since as we now know, he actually smiled at her as he has never smiled at anyone before. So I would call that a very good start, actually.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡrLpYtNKSDc
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e) Karin just has the hots for Sasuke and wants to ravage him, it’s nothing but lust and a shallow infatuation! She’s a perv!

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Given the way, the "ravage" comment gets thrown around left and right, I'll start by addressing that. That was a mistranslation. Karin never said that she wanted to "ravage" Sasuke. And before you try to say that her original line amounts to the same thing: no, it doesn't. There is a clear difference between the harmless innuendo that is true to Karin's track-record and implying that she would rape him.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ873mVnipNm
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That said: since when has being a little perverted been a crime in this manga, anyway? last time I checked, moments like these were meant to be lighthearted rather than belittling to the characters involved. Karin simply happens to be sexually attracted to the guy she loves. Big deal. Not like that's completely normal for a girl of her age, right?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡpggWqK1Y3I
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But why, Karin is turned on by Sasuke (and by him sucking on her chakra), and did once show that if she had the chance, she would like to 'attack' or make her move on him—a moment that, by the way, was added for something called comic-relief. Interesting, isn’t it? NaruSaku has Sakura’s tsundere tendencies, SasuNaru used to have their usual bickering, NaruHina has Hinata’s constant fainting and stuttering, LeeSaku had Lee’s boisterous approaches and Sakura’s reactions to them, and SasuKarin has Karin’s eccentricities.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡCYJE7JVls7
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But that’s not all there is to it.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡHdaUcf0swW
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Originally, I had written a long paragraph listing chapters and panels where Karin’s love for Sasuke could be blatantly noticed. But nowadays, I think this panel in Chapter 482 says it all (as by 'that face' she means Sasuke smiling and looking happy). If somehow that still isn’t enough for you, then I invite you to read this (and/or re-read the section on their development, since you’ve apparently missed a couple of things regarding Karin’s character). So, shallow? Mere infatuation? Karin’s feelings have been shown to be anything but. And as if this weren't clear enough as it is, we now have Karin's feelings for Sasuke being the trigger that awakened her dormant Uzumaki powers. (So I genuinely hope you will give this so-called argument a rest, once and for all—because trying to undermine the nature and strength of Karin's feelings for Sasuke is like beating a dead horse).682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡrCVlmglV9f
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So, while we have that in 2010 the manga pretty much confirmed in all but words that Karin doesn’t only like Sasuke, but that she is selflessly in love with him—for those who are fond of Databooks and the likes, we have that those that have featured Karin (Databook III: Sha no Sho, 2008 and Naruto Chronicles Minibook, 2009) describe her feelings for Sasuke as “suki” ("好き" - love/like) here and here, plus her feelings for him are also a vital part of her background.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡfMo2A58XRk

- But even as Orochimaru's underling, Karin feels no obligation towards him. Karin still fulfills her duties out of affection for Uchiha Sasuke. Then Orochimaru dies, and Sasuke stands before her. She sees something in Sasuke... just what would that be...?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡe1vhSORP8m
- Underneath a facade of aloofness and irritability, she bears a dangerous attraction towards Sasuke...

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Bottom-line: no, Karin’s feelings for Sasuke aren’t just infatuation, and even less limited to lust. On that subject, her sexual attraction to him spawns from her genuine feelings for him. It’s a healthy combination if you ask me.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ0WAoL39MeT
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In fact, that much is proved by the triangular theory of love (psychology? Applied to my manga characters? wait, don't run away yet!), which is a theory of love developed by psychologist Robert Sternberg; in it, we see that:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPOzYhA4C0N

Romantic love: Intimacy + Passion.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡzzamGrHeWL
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Where Intimacy: Encompasses feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡVl21GpANkP
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And Passion: Encompasses drives that lead to romance, physical attraction, and sexual consummation.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡggLhGhIfkg
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Getting that Romantic Love bonds individuals emotionally through intimacy and physically through passionate arousal.

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So as you can see, far from being detrimental to the pairing (as some have insisted to claim) it definitely is a good and healthy combination; in fact, it’s perfect.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡy0BHhJjjyD
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Also, while this manifesto focuses on canon aka the manga, I thought it was worth addressing that a common reason why people tend to feel this way about Karin is actually due to the way she has been portrayed in the Anime, so you can find a short post pointing out the filler scenes from the canon ones in the link.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡhsh9GkeMlr
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f) Who cares! Karin said she’s over Sasuke, SasuKarin is dead!

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Except that she never said she was over Sasuke. But I’ve already addressed this in ‘Sasuke’s Downfall’, so all I can add here is: feelings in Naruto do not disappear in the blink of an eye, not even after seemingly unforgivable things like stabs and betrayals. So if I were you, I would wait until Karin and Sasuke meet again to count the pairing out—especially if you’re taking that for granted only because you think Karin is over him.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡnZoa6yP6Q0
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But on that light, if she were over Sasuke, do you really think she would have chosen to pull a stunt to the guards over having conflicting feelings for him, out of all things?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡAeX9RbuLcn
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edit [in light of 627 (and 635 and 662, 663, 664, 667...)]; see? we told you not to jump the gun.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡx5D1mrBpI1
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g) So what! Karin is just a fangirl who doesn’t even know Sasuke!

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A fangirl? No. She does not idolize Sasuke, and that alone separates her from the fangirl stereotype. As a matter of fact: Karin is a tsundere, something that by principle alone sets her —and her dynamic with Sasuke— apart from that of him and his fangirls (and of every girl that has liked him in the past, for none of them had been tsuntsun with him). (I recommend reading the above link; it's a much more condensed version of the point I'll be making here).682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡgj7s2Exl6M
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Especially considering that Kishimoto does have a fangirl stereotype; all of them pretty much behave the same way. And to demonstrate this as good as I can, I’ll illustrate it by making comparisons between Karin and established fangirls; mostly Sakura in her early stages (aka back when she was one ~~god bless her development~~) for two reasons: a) she has the most panel time with Sasuke so it's unavoidable b) twelve-year-old Sakura is the character to whom Karin is compared the most.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡfbSIKiaI58
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Let’s take a look, shall we?

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When Sasuke says something they don’t agree with:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡu4ci103oCj
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Fangirls are intimidated and hesitant to express disagreement with Sasuke, not wanting to wrong him; it takes dire situations for them to actually bring themselves to say the bitter truth to him. Karin couldn't care less, and she stands up to him in an every day basis.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ9ulmhoqSKF
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The same happens when they don’t agree with Sasuke’s plan of action:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡQc78ApzoEj
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When Sasuke does something cool:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ96rfHFtjjm
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Fangirls loudly squeal it for the world (and Sasuke) to know. Karin keeps it to herself.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡursFHp2355
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The same happens when Sasuke is about to go and kick some ass:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡk0D7aMTzPT
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Or when they just found Sasuke cool for whatever reason:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ9Ev4AKff5G
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When mentioning any feelings for Sasuke:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡc3T86v5Wbk
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Fangirls are happy to admit them. Karin adamantly denies them.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡoyEt3hdexp
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When Sasuke gets beaten up:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPVtn1ZoCBv
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Fangirls try to downplay his shortcomings and still give him praise. Karin points said shortcomings to his face.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡSzbm6ufEx9
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When they’re with Sasuke in public:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡGtevqlri4W
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Fangirls, you notice they're fangirls. Karin does not treat Sasuke any differently than she does everyone else.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ1PtgkM6nYP
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Cheering Sasuke on?:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡcZR38SAnXf
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Fangirls loudly do it. Karin is more focused on the enemy instead (lol)682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡydZBA8Mc4J
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When Sasuke, after being hurt, regains consciousness:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡfpCdqE0550

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See the sole similarity (meaning, that Karin also happens to think he’s cool—something that, by the way, she has only done three times so far) and the huge amount of differences? Fangirls have the following traits:682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡngcmZrTV6s

They openly praise Sasuke and every little thing he does.
They try to make themselves look good and appealing in front of him; whether it’s physically (like going on a diet, growing their hair long) or inwardly (hiding their real thoughts, explicitly wanting to avoid making him angry at them).
They're in awe of him and see him as someone who’s above themselves, and treat him as such instead of treating him with equality.
They are focused on him to the point where that may even get in the way of their prowess.
They’re more or less blind to his faults.

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Now, see why Karin cannot be considered your "usual" fangirl, and even less just a fangirl? Her personality and her behavior when around, and not around Sasuke differentiate her from Kishimoto's fangirl stereotype.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ4Ih68KAF2y
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I’ve seen some claim that since Karin doesn’t openly admit her feelings for him (like fangirls do), that makes her a hypocrite. And to those who claim that I have to ask, haven’t you ever seen a tsundere in your anime/manga watching/reading life? Because that’s just what Karin happens to be (even her databook entry describes her as "aloof and irritable" with 'tsun', the same as 'tsundere'. And she was outright described as a "glasses-gotta-go tsundere" in Rock Lee SD [manga by one of Kishi's assistants]). And when it comes to Sasuke, her ‘tsun’ (harshness, roughness) is not a façade; everything she says to him, she means. So there’s no hypocrisy there, her personality is genuine as she’s not afraid to show herself to him as she is, faults and all.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ8TgfrnOJhq
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What she feels though is a different matter, but she’s under no obligation to scream she loves him out to the world or to admit her feelings to anyone but him if she doesn’t desire to. She has no reason to wear her emotions on her sleeve; even less so since she knows that Sasuke has got no time for love right now.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡOV4d20aV04
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Lastly, that brings me to the second claim. Karin does not know him? Uh, then how come Kishimoto used the Sasuke ‘Karin has known until now’ as the touchstone to contrast with Dark Sasuke? If you honestly believe that she doesn’t know him, you’re pretty much contradicting the mangaka… and guess who knows the characters better? Not to mention, back when Sasuke told Hebi that his objective was Uchiha Itachi? That’s right, Karin showed no surprise. And then when he spelled out to Danzou the truth of the Uchiha Massacre? That’s right, Karin showed no surprise again—meaning, she most likely knows even that [his motivations].682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡIgH8NHD6KE
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h) Suigetsu’s comments about SasuKarin are meaningless, he was just doing it to be a jerk!

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… I thankfully haven’t actually come across anyone saying this myself, but I’ve heard that there are some that have. I can’t even pretend to take this claim (argument?) seriously either, so I will be blunt: Suigetsu is a jerk to Karin. He insults her and deliberately teases her about her feelings for Sasuke because he knows that will make her angry.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡDtALn3XnRm
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And, well… Karin wasn’t around to hear him, nor in 567 nor in 574.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡv7i0ts5ogc
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So no, Suigetsu was not making those comments to be a jerk to anyone (only Juugo was around, and how do any of Suigetsu's comments about SK affect him in any way?); he was being honest and saying things as he sees them. And anyway, sure thing he wants to cockblock them, but how does Suigetsu basically admitting that he thinks Sasuke will fall for Karin’s advances equal he being a jerk? Hell, that's actually something I doubt he would acknowledge in front of Karin—because it is anything but insulting.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡVdh5WsIq7q
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So this 'argument' makes absolutely no sense.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡSd8QWp0HV6
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i) Whatever! So what?! None of that matters anyway, because Karin and SasuKarin are just comic relief!

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Once pretty much all the arguments listed above backfired, many resorted to this one. That apparently, everything that has happened between them—Sasuke's behavior towards Karin, Karin's feelings for him, their dynamic, so on so forth—is meaningless and holds no weight because SasuKarin (and Taka) are just... comic relief.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡOdYQ0HxmxD
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I strongly disagree. And Kishimoto does, too, if the recent chapters have been anything to go by. So this is yet another argument that crumbles under its own weight.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡdSfrv7oQYo
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Nonetheless: thinking that the humor that has always been present in Taka's dynamic somehow undermines their importance, or the depth of their bond, is missing the forest for the trees. Especially when it's well known that Kishimoto likes his humor; so the fact that he is able to deliver both, serious and comedic moments through Taka and SasuKarin is a really good thing. They're there to both complement and balance Sasuke; and Sasuke is quite a serious character on his own.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡfNjj9X3ZVG
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Also, another thing that is worth clearing up —for it's often used to back up the "comic relief" claim — is that Kishimoto never said that he was forced to create Hebi / Taka, or that his editors created them. That misunderstanding spawns from a quote that was completely misconstructed; you can read about it in the link.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPp2myuPF71
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j) Karin was all over Sasuke after a measly apology. What do you say to that, huh!?

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I have a lot of things to say about that, actually. As I explained before, those who took Karin's line in 485 to mean that she was over Sasuke or that she would be moving on from him were either reading too much into it, or not taking into account Kishi's usual writing formula.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡg3QIeBtpvV
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For better or for worse, Sasuke's wrong-doings have usually been pushed under a rug and no character does really demand any apologies out of him. That is why chapter 485 was so important; because it meant that Karin did hold Sasuke responsible for what he did and that he would have to make amends with her.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡxJLZzj7b7l
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Which is exactly what happened. As a matter of fact, what I was expecting —and hoping— of Karin (and Kishi) based on 485 was the following:

For her to still be angry at Sasuke (and hopefully even smack him).682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPJI3yGPqFh
For her to give him a hard time and not accept to go with him until he has at least apologized to her.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡjsIxsfhwLa
For her to still be tsuntsun over him even after he has apologized to her - because a stab should not be let go of that easily.

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And what did Karin do? The very first thing she did was scream bloody murder at Sasuke for what he did to her. So, she was indeed pretty angry still over what Sasuke did to her.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡpoXZftUJe7
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Then, she begins to yell that she would "never forgive him". In other words: she was about to give him a hard time and was obviously not going to be tagging along unless he showed some repentance.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡexAoVvCU6C
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And that's when the twist comes: because Sasuke doesn't even let her finish. He apologizes to her right away. That is why there was no hitting, no prolonged yelling; because it was just not necessary. By making Sasuke apologize on his own, Kishimoto sped the 'give-Sasuke-a-hard-time-until-he-apologizes' process to all of 2 panels.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡpikVaiUSCS
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But Karin's character itself, though? She still fulfilled all the criteria that her behavior post-stab had set up.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡjHty0puj8M
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Now, is an apology enough to make up for what he did to her? Not at all. And Karin is shown to know this herself (protip: she even calls him "shithead" in the original Japanese). As I (again) explained before: we see her struggling with herself in 627 for a reason. But the fact of the matter is that Sasuke's apology wasn't only a start, but the clearest sign of the fact that her Sasuke is either back or very close to being back. And we need to remember that if there’s someone who can have a pretty clear dividing line between the Sasuke she loves and the Sasuke he was in the Kage Summit and Danzou fight, that’s Karin. And this all is only heightened by the fact that she can sense chakra.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡnVcQoBKanu
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So no, Karin going back to Sasuke after he actually apologized to her does not negate what I've been mentioning throughout the manifesto. And in fact, she was meant to sound angry still even while she was "all over him".682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ5hKUkroOgz
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k) Whatever! Sasuke's apology was half-assed and insincere anyway!

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Does Sasuke look like the type of guy who would apologize to someone just for shits and giggles? Does Sasuke look like the type of guy who would apologize at all, for that matter?682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡPcD0PF7APt
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This was post-massacre Sasuke's very first apology to anybody during the course of the manga, and you want to undermine it by claiming that it was "insincere"? Never mind the fact that Karin can sense when people lie and wouldn't have been so moved had Sasuke's apology been anything other than sincere. Trying to undermine them is doing a disservice to Sasuke's character, implying that he is a big enough asshole as to not regret almost killing someone he obviously cares about.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡqQrJbU73pa
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Now, Sasuke's wording in japanese not only demonstrates that his apology was indeed sincere. It also goes against the claim of it being "half-assed". As a matter of fact, when a member of NF joked that it was just some "light" apology and not at all "heartfelt", a native (and unbiased) Japanese speaker pointed out that no, that wasn't the case.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡX1gzDbAXOY
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And of course, after the indifference with which he addressed his old Konoha peers and the apologies he sure as heck didn't deliver on 631, Kishi's writer intent shines through and only highlights his apology to Karin.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡhPBpTfuBTu
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l) So what!? She disgusts him! The face he made on 627 said it all!

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That Karin disgusts him? Going by 627 alone, if that were the case, I'd think Sasuke would have actually done something to try and get Karin off him. He did anything but, though.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡJk4qLYJVZp
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So, disgusted? More like nervous.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡFtCZTgHDM4

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She is literally making him sweat. And there's a good reason for that, too. Sasuke starts sweating the moment Karin steps into the scene. He apologizes to her, yes; yet Karin continues to insult him, stomps over to him, and points out what he did to her. What us the readers (and Orochimaru. And Suigetsu. And pretty much anyone who is 100% aware of the fact that she is in love with him) see is that Karin is basically melting despite herself. What Sasuke, however, hears is that: a mere apology won't do and that she will tag along because she "has no choice" - as Orochimaru has asked her to.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ2wnRRRycNE
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Add to all that the fact that Karin is mean to still sound pissed even as she is snuggling up to him, and it's fairly easy to get just why Sasuke is sweating and why he looks so nervous.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡWlrpNt3VCy
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He simply has no clue whatsoever what to expect from Karin. Because as far as he knows: she has not let him off the hook. And if you remember the kind of relationship dynamic that Kishimoto prefers, it's extremely telling that Karin made Sasuke lose his cool and make the only face of its kind that he has shown throughout Part II, without even trying.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ6OI2k9A4F2
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m) I hate it anyway! Going back to Sasuke is a detriment to Karin's character!

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This one is kind of repetitive because I've already addressed it in parts, but since I see this one a lot, I thought it wouldn't hurt to address it directly.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡhYSGVlIxgr
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I've already addressed why "going back" to Sasuke does not undermine Karin's character. I've also already explained (and shown) that there never were any harmful nor damaging (emotionally or otherwise) dynamics between them. Quite the opposite. To quote what I wrote in the Manifesto's Conclusion: "The only negativity actually came during the arc Sasuke went Dark, which says a lot because it took him undergoing a radical change for the worse—forsaking his usual nature and becoming unlike the Sasuke Karin has always known—for there to be any in the pairing."682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡYzIH0x6fEl
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In other words (and this is what a lot of people seem to miss): Karin staying true to her love for Sasuke and giving him another chance is not detrimental for her character. Because this isn't "Darksuke" she is "going back to". This is her Sasuke; and as such, she isn't willingly putting herself on the receiving end of a dynamic that hurt her or affected her negatively.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡpJ0etYYsBR
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The fact of the matter is: regardless of what your personal perception and opinion of SasuKarin might be, in canon nor Karin's feelings for the usual Sasuke nor her dynamic with him have ever been portrayed negatively by Kishi. Not once.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡMKP1JOkQFQ
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The Karin we know is smart, headstrong, hot-headed, assertive, authoritative, observant, and emotionally-strong. She is also feisty, foul-mouthed, sexually aware, and has her own moral compass. And her love for Sasuke does not keep her from being any of those things.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡwO3hqqvtaf
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Karin never holds any sides of her personality back from him, nor the good nor the bad. Her flaws are hers and hers alone; and as such, they are not aggravated by her feelings for Sasuke.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡkx4EGQfHeC
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She does admire Sasuke, but she does not idolize nor idealize him; her perception of him is not blinded to his flaws, and if anything Karin tends to call him out of them whenever she can.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ9f4PEVRRvu
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To better illustrate my point: this is how Karin is around other characters (namely, Suigetsu, whom she is the nastiest to):682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡWC2Xj6jLwx

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And this is how Karin is around and towards Sasuke:

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So loving Sasuke is no regression, because it has never negatively impacted her character progress. Hell, even when her advances don't meet the desired outcome all Karin does is scoff or sweatdrop. No side of her feelings for him have any negative emotional impact on her nor bring her down.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡYWOxKbYAct
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In fact, I'd argue they have done the opposite.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡkiuEvEEJym
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Karin does not trust others with the soft, lady-like sides of her personality; but she does trust Sasuke with them. This is positive right here. The most selfless acts that we have seen her shown so far have also been directly related to her feelings for Sasuke; putting her life in jeopardy for him and throwing aside any fear in order to courageously run to his aid, asking him to not kill Sakura, etc. Once again: positive.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡdhIQoeymHB
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The strength she currently possesses? Her love for Sasuke was the catalyst for much of it. She fulfilled her duties under Oro for Sasuke; her desire to see him happy has been her drive all throughout; she awakened her dormant Uzumaki powers for Sasuke. Positive.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ4fUNmjEaLa
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So no, being with Sasuke is not detrimental to her character. It never was.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡ2dHChns7oJ
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By the way, another thing I noticed that antis loved to bring up is “Karin is in love with Sasuke’s chakra but not with him!” which is based on an anime-only moment, therefore filler, therefore not canon, therefore it’s absolutely meaningless. And I’ve already disproved any variation of it, anyway.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡFy3j0dnDkj
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The conclusion after going through all those claims? As you can see, most (if not all) of these are based on misconceptions, generalizations / selective reading, biased opinions—and, lately, also jumping the gun (which is at least more understandable, though not necessarily any more correct) but little to no veracity backs up any of those claims.682Please respect copyright.ＰＥＮＡＮＡSFZzh0cdTb
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Next Section:

IV. CONCLUSION

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Or, Return to the Index (comments go here as well).

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A DANGEROUS AFFECTION [III - COMMON ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM]

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